topic Re: Camera flaws in XPERIA archive

Camera flaws

Radicans — Mon, 03 Nov 2014 21:24:13 GMT

With this post I would like to raise two distinct issues with the Z3 camera. I know the reviews have been mostly positive, but I think there are serious flaws in the resulting image, as seen when looking closer and comparing with similarly priced phones, and I have photos to back my claims up in a very measurable way. I also want to point out that this post is not meant to be a rant, but rather a plea for Sony to acknowledge these issues so we can have them remedied. The Z3 is a fantastic phone, but the camera is not living up to its promise. I have written several posts on the xda forums, and will summarize here.

Issue 1: Washed out photos

For some reason, the photos taken with the Z3 can look quite washed out, or watercolory, especially when taking photos of fine detail, like trees with colorful autumn leaves. To see where this comes from, one can convert the photo to the YCbCr encoding scheme. Here, the image is encoded in one Luminance and two Chrominance channels, and one can see that the channels containing color information are extremely blurred in all Z3 photos. Here is a quick look of a 1:1 crop of the Cb (blueness) channel for 6 different cameras (original RGB photos taken from this phonearena review http://www.phonearena.com/news/Samsung-Galaxy-Note-4-wins-our-blind-camera-comparison-iPhone-6-is-distant-second_id61676) (make sure to open the image in a new view to see the actual size)

As you can see, the Z3 has very little information left. The Note 4 and the other Samsungs on the other hand are very detailed, which I presume is the way it should look like. The result of the blind test, from which I have taken the photos, speaks its clear language; the photos with the most blurred out chroma channels ranked last, namely Z3 and LG. The Note 4 came out on top, which is the photo with the most detailed chroma channel.

Here is a post I wrote about it, when comparing the Z3 and iPhone5s, and also locked versus unlocked bootloader:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=56291934&postcount=329

I have witnessed this chroma blur in each and every Z3 photo I have looked at, whether it's mine or something I pulled from the web. It is most certainly not related to my particular device. It is also something that is not evident in the competition, as evidenced above. This leads me to believe that it's a flaw inherent in the Z3 camera design.

Issue 2: "Cross hatching"

I don't know the technical term for this, but it manifests when taking photos of fine detail, such as leaves. It seems to be a result of oversharpening, but I'm just guessing here. Following are three 1:1 crops comparing the Samsung Galaxy Note 3 with my Z3 compact. It is not a random occurrence, but shows up in every single photo I have taken, and it also shows up in photos I see online.

More 1:1 crops from the same photo:

http://i.imgur.com/5f0PbVQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zy3hzJY.jpg

Next is a photo where I compare photos of the same scene between the Z3 and iPhone5s. You can clearly see that the iPhone5 has more real detail in its 8MP photo, than in the corresponding 20MP from Z3. The detail seem to have been destroyed by the processing which cause the cross hatching / over sharpened look. The Z3 8MP image is simply a resize I made to see the difference in another light.

http://i.imgur.com/PPl4wMo.jpg

Sony, if you read this, please adress these issues for the release of Android 5.0, if possible. There seems to be quite a few owners unsatisfied with the camera if you judge by forum activity, and it is generating very bad brand reputation. Also, I have seen many posts where people say they are discouraged from buying the Z3 because of the camera alone!

If you bring the camera up to par with the competition, the Z3 will pretty much be the best phone on the market right now, and I'm certain the coming Z4 will also benefit greatly from a truly competetive camera!

Thank you!

Re: Camera flaws

oligograph — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:21:56 GMT

Great post, I'm also disappointed about the camera quality... very bad for it's price.

It's really a dealbreaker 😕

Re: Camera flaws

SilverAsh — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 17:19:48 GMT

It's very 'clear' what the problem is so hopefully Sony do something about it. I love z3 but todimy say I'm disappointed in the camera is an understatement. I came from a oneplus one which uses Sony camera and produced far battery images.

Sony can come out top with the z3 but only if they fix camera.

Re: Camera flaws

bcboncs — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 04:26:30 GMT

I am just sitting in bed configuring my newly delivered Z3 and have the same issue. The photo is extremely blurry and no matter what resolution or setting I use, it lacks a lot of detail and does not take clean images. My nexus 4's camera looks like it came out 5 years after the Z3 and I'm not even exaggerating. Unfortunately I have been waiting on this phone for a long time due to its size but this camera is terrible. If Sony cannot reassure a firmware update or some fix to this, I am returning this phone. Very disappointed.

Re: Camera flaws

Radicans — Thu, 06 Nov 2014 13:20:55 GMT

Yeah, Sony supplies sensors to many phones which produce great looking photos. The Samsung Galaxy Note 4 has one as far as I know, and the photos from that camera look stunning, at least in daylight. So no doubt Sony produces great sensors!

And the sensor in the Z3 is even bigger than that in the Note 4, so unless this particular sensor is inherently flawed, we should be able to get great quality photos!

I don't like to speculate too much, but it seems as if Sony has prioritized low light photos (understandably, since this is a big selling point with the Z3), and applies image processing tailored to those cases. The heavy chroma blur is likely a result of getting rid of that low-light chromatic noise. And indeed, the low light photos are phenomenal, but when similar processing is applied (needlessly!) to daylight shots, the result is much much worse. Well, that's what I think is going on anyway.

Re: Camera flaws

MyAliasIsGary — Sat, 15 Nov 2014 19:42:19 GMT

hi Radicans

Thanks VERY much for the post - I'm not alone then in being disappointed with the camera.

I too can confirm the "cross hatching" on 20mp shots. I can't post them because they're of another person but I can confirm they were taken, day time, in high light levels i.e. no need for application of any crazy noise controlling algorithms, etc.

i'm a little confused though by the different resolution modes:

I've established that Scene Selection is only available on the 8mp shots... but these shots are based on the full use of the camera sensor and are simply rescaled?

Is there any 'real' benefit to using the 20mp mode then, without Scene Selection available, especially with the cross-hatching artifacts?

As you've clearly done a lot of research with the camera and sound like you know your digital photo science, what is your preferred set-up? Is there a best compromise configuration?

What little tinkering I've done has established:

- image stabilisation doesn't really seem to help - much better to just hold the camera still!

- the flash is underpowered, except on fill mode

- I don't see the point of a super high ISO mode for low light use, when realistically you just need a longer exposure (and can forgo the noise that you inevitably get with high ISO settings). HOWEVER, I can't seem to control exposure / shutter speed manually and I've not tried fiddling with the exposure slider... so am only left with the ISO parameter... and... presumably noise

In fact, I've just done some night time tests and leaving ISO on auto appears to generate the most realistically exposed shot.

All shots were done with camera stabilised on a window sill. Metering mode was multi. All exposures were 1/8 second, baring the 200 ISO one, which was pretty long @ .77 secs. 20mp shots were 4:3. 8mp were 16:9.

- Superior Auto overexposed massively (12800 ISO).

- 20mp 4:3 (ISO auto at 800). Focus was good but under exposed.

- Night scene selected on 16:9 8mp, you can see the processing, although the light levels weren't bad.

- The only ISO where I managed to force a longer exposure was setting it to 200. The EXIF data reports 250 ISO though. It was a manual, 8mp. Colouring of window lights and the streetlight playing on the whitewashed walls of the next door house (right side) weren't too far off being correct.

- 8mp ISO auto seemed to create most realistic representation (ISO came out at 1600). The sky was most accurately represented here but maybe because I managed to miss out the illumination from the windows at the side of the other photos.

EDIT: had initially used "small" images but plumped for bigger ones, since you can actually see them!

I would be interested in hearing your further opinions on the z3 / z3 compact camera.

Also, I was wondering whether I might be able to improve camera performance using a 3rd party app. Any thoughts / recommendations?

Regards,

Gary

Re: Camera flaws

Wordfool — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 21:22:48 GMT

Count me as another disappointed camera user. I know the sensor is capable of great performance, as indicated by the few shots I've taken that look amazing. But those are few and far between.

I can't believe how bad Sony's camera software is and how unintelligent the "intelligent auto" mode can be. Shutter speed and ISO in daylight seem to often be completely hit and miss, white balance is all over the place and totally unreliable, jpeg processing destroys detail (probably because of the obsession with low noise night shots), and I'm still confused by which camera features are available at which resolutions. Why can't we have scene selection available at higher resolutions? Oh, and don't even get me started on the pink blob "phenomenon", which also seems related to crummy white balance control.

Having read the reviews of the camera I was expecting so much more. As it is, however, the schizophrenic nature of the Z3 camera's decision making results in absolutely no consistency. My Nexus 4 has a crummy camera, but at least I quickly got to know how it consistently behaved in different situations and soon mastered how to get the best out of it. There seesm to be far less chance of getting to know this Z3 camera in the same way. Heck, I mastered a new DSLR faster than I'm able to this camera.

I've read that some people are getting better results from third-party apps (Open Camera, FV5, Pro Capture, JB+) so I'm going to give them a go and hope Sony gets it's app act together in the next update.

Re: Camera flaws

il_vecio — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 22:11:38 GMT

Thanks Radicans for your technical explanation...i'm wondering why no one from Sony support team haven't replied yet

Re: Camera flaws

MyAliasIsGary — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:28:06 GMT

@Wordfool

It's difficult to speculate about the camera 'issues'.

I've done a fair amount of reading on the matter and closely monitor the xda-dev forums on the z3 compact.

I'm really disappointed about the 20mp performance and I think the 8mp photos are where Sony anticipates most usage from, so maybe they've put more work into that resolution? Anyway, I think I'm going to spend more time using them.

Good question regarding scene selection at higher resolutions. Maybe it was too complicated to generate all the appropriate settings at the higher resolution or they couldn't generate consistent and/or acceptable results?

Maybe they plan to roll out a camera app patch?

I think the general consensus is:

- use manual rather than automatic (which is kinda ironic). The review I cite below disagrees with me but opinion on forums are to not use auto (unless I've completely got that wrong).

- with my limited assessment, leave ISO on auto and let camera decide how to 'expose'.

- be aware of WB settings. Tbh this is a common problem for digital cameras, so I frankly expect issues there. incandescent lighting is a classic one (yellow tinge to images). Flourescent lighting I think makes stuff blue.

- metering may need to be altered for different shots. You'd expect multi sourced metering to be accurate but i could imagine if a scene had lots of different light levels, this might result in under or over exposure.

- blurred shots seem rather easy on z3 compact (my experience certainly) - be really careful and keep extra still.

- HDR struggles on the z3 compact (here's a detailed camera analysis for some current top end phones - personally I think all 'seem' average to poor: http://www.gsmarena.com/iphone_6_vs_galaxy_alpha_vs_xperia_z3c-review-1148p7.php).

- I know it shouldn't be like this but people taking photos need to be aware of the limitations of digital cameras e.g. don't expect a flash to do much; rest / stabilise the camera for low-light shots; phone cameras are hugely limited due to the optics and fixed aperture, etc. We also must remember that a camera is not half as clever as our eyes / brains at processing light levels, etc, etc.

Specific features missing from the current camera app: I'd have liked to have seen a control on quality of JPEG. Alternatively, output to png would be brilliant.

Regarding improving the camera app - I suspect Sony are beavering away for the lollipop version of the app. As I understand it, lollip camera API supports RAW images, which should give people more control over images. The flipside is: can I be bothered on a phone camera, when i just want to take simple shots / selfies, etc?

Regarding 3rd party apps: JB+ They claim to have won a 2013 best camera app (bestappever), so this could be a good option? I think the standard google app is good too - simple functionality but works. Sadly though, Sony's should have the best specific performance because it's their camera. 3rd party apps in theory are generic and won't be able to bring out the best in specific camera tech, since a lot of the performance comes down to post-processing.

@il_vecio

I agree but am not surprised. It would be useful to have some guidance from Sony on maximising camera performance, since people seme to be struggling with consistency.

Regards,

Gary

Re: Camera flaws

gremlin1 — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 23:51:15 GMT

Have sony said the scene selection is only available in 8mp or under or is it a software error.utterly gobsmacked at the naffness from a camera advertised as 20mp if it is intentional

Re: Camera flaws

MyAliasIsGary — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 00:10:17 GMT

@gremlin wrote:
Have sony said the scene selection is only available in 8mp or under or is it a software error.utterly gobsmacked at the naffness from a camera advertised as 20mp if it is intentional

Hi Gremlin

No idea mate.

Just know that Scene Selection only appears on 8mp and is greyed out on 20mp.

Tbh think the 20mp use is PR and sales bling.

Very interesting article here about light sensors and megapixels:

http://gadgets.ndtv.com/mobiles/features/more-than-megapixels-what-really-counts-in-a-smartphone-camera-495572

Check here too for 8mp vs 20mp on the z3 compact + use of oversampling (as mentioned in prior article). Basically explains that it's best to use 8mp, which is presumably why we don't get Scene Selection at 20mp:

http://forum.xda-developers.com/z3-compact/help/camera-t2902112

Cheers,

Gaz

Re: Camera flaws

gremlin1 — Mon, 17 Nov 2014 00:47:36 GMT

I would not have bothered swapping from my n8 if i'd realised it would be so limited.it's such a waste

Re: Camera flaws

scattymare666 — Fri, 12 Dec 2014 03:20:38 GMT

And another very disappointed bird here too,i purposely chose the z3 specifically for it's camera spec,and now very very gutted to of ditched my Samsung s3 as the camera on that was spot on...Hopefully this issue will be resolved soon.?

Re: Camera flaws

Red_Beret — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 13:49:20 GMT

Any news from Sony about this problem?

It will be fixed? When?

Re: Camera flaws

Punyawee — Tue, 13 Jan 2015 16:08:52 GMT

How's about the front camera? No one talks about the very poor performance of front camera. ALWAYS blur in every single shot when take by pushing the physical key on the side.. niose is all around the pictures... very disappointed.. I've just leave from LG G3 to Z3C.. I can't believe how Z3C is much worse than G3 like this.

Re: Camera flaws

venillalollipop — Wed, 28 Jan 2015 00:35:41 GMT

sony promised we wont need digital camera when they launched xperia z1 now till z3 people still using different camera because sony u didnt deliver the promise to us its simple ur camera software is bad we cannot get good quality pictures specially in superior auto mode all u sony need to do is fix the algorithm then sony will rule the smartphone camera buissines

Suggestion: improve camera app funcionality

dks_darkness — Wed, 04 Feb 2015 09:48:02 GMT

Hello community!

I would like to make some suggestions in order to improve the camera app and how it works:

1. Been able to configure the camera button in order to choose which mode should open by default. I'm always shot in manual mode, so I spend some time changing from A+ mode to M, when I use the camera button shortcut.

2. The same as previous but for the lock screen shortcut.

3. Image estabilization independent from Auto ISO.

4. Filter effects: been able to choose the image size.

What do you think??

Thanks

Re: Camera flaws

vdv — Sun, 08 Feb 2015 23:38:17 GMT

I came accross another problem that makes Z3 Compact photographs trashy in comparisson to many other smartphones.

When taking picture in snowy environment the "Superior Auto" mode significantly shifts white balance to purple. Whenever I try using "Manual" mode in order to select the appropriate scene, left or right quarter of the frame are blurred heavily, thus, the picture looks absolutely corrupt and fairly unusable.

I have checked if the blurring issue is reproducable under different conditions: indoors, outdoors with less light tints in the frame, choosing a different "scene", under low light conditions and in the sun etc. Unfortunately, the answer is yes: the random blurring photo quality flaw persists in "Manual" mode regardless of lightning or dominating color of the scene.

Please, pay attention to the issue.

Re: Camera flaws

Guren — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 14:29:54 GMT

Very frustrated with the camera. That pale photos ( no objection against over saturation which is equally annoying) and being deprived of using some of the options in high pixel mode. I'm waiting for the Lollipop update. If that won't do any good, I'll sell it and buy another phone. 20 years later I may check Sony phones again to see whether there is an improvement or not.

Re: Camera flaws

Thommo — Tue, 17 Feb 2015 00:12:26 GMT

Posting the same thing all over the place is spam and will get picked up as such - It's also called by some flooding the forum so that's why, Also we are a user led support forum and the Sony staff that are here leave the running of it to we the members - If you want Sony then contact Xperia care http://www.sonymobile.com/global-en/support/contact-us/